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 Unregistered(d) |
Cult members |
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Posts: 0 (04/11/02 11:41:14) |
My wife is a former JW (Jehovah's Witnesses). The key to the cults is to realize that the persons trust is in the CULT, not in the Lord or His word. If the cult says something, and they have their trust in the cult, it doesn't matter how well you prove from the Scriptures that they are wrong. Prayer is the most vital issue in the salvation of cult members, because the person must put their trust in the Lord, and His word.
* ADDED definition of JW * |
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Unregistered(d) |
victims of cults | ||
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Posts: 0 (09/05/02 10:49:46) |
Yes, I have to agree prayer is the only way. My sister has been involved with a JW cult for almost ten years. I cannot believe she actually believes in the rubbish JW's teach. We were not brought up in any religion as children. However, we did attend church once in a while with the neighbor down the street. One scripture that stuck in my head at the age of five was John 3:16. I feel sad that she doesn't understand having God's grace on your heart. If she only knew having God's grace she wouldn't continue to do the things she does. Such as drink, smoke and judge others. I pray God will bring her out of this cult so she can expirience real love, joy and peace in her life. I belong to a non denominational Christian Church and look forward to hearing the Gods Word. Please pray for my sister Shelly.
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Aaron |
Re: Cult members | ||
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Posts: 1090 (09/09/02 17:10:53) |
I thought JWs weren't allowed to smoke or drink.
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Aaron |
What makes it a cult? | ||
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Posts: 1090 (12/04/02 15:26:21) |
Since it is humanly impossible to settle the preceding debate, why don't we get back to the topic of cults...
Some over-zealous members of any particular man-made theological system (be it reformed or otherwise) might wish to believe that the "other camp" is a cult. However, this is not the case, and i think we should discuss what the definition of a cult is, and how you tell if a group is a cult. A cult is more than just misguided beliefs... even if those beliefs are about central issues like salvation (both the reformed camp and the other camp have misguided beliefs, which I think is why they argue). While it is true that cult members are normally discouraged from examining their beliefs, it does not necessarily follow that people who do not examine their beliefs are in a cult. Anyway, i'm throwing out the question to everybody.... what makes something a cult? |
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Daniel |
Re: What makes it a cult? | ||
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Posts: 1195 (12/04/02 18:48:33) Administrator |
Oo, oo! A chance to post one of my favorite links!
www.watchman.org/cat95.htm#Cult Okay, more than one... www.watchman.org/cat95.htm#Christianity www.watchman.org/cat95.htm#Gospel |
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Aaron |
Re: What makes it a cult? | ||
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Posts: 1090 (12/05/02 11:30:49) |
A word i liked from that first article Daniel referenced was "counterfeit". A dollar bill can be perfect or damaged or have minor errors in the printing... but it's still worth a dollar. A counterfeit bill is 1) worth nothing and 2) designed for deception. The essence of being real or counterfeit is its origin... who made it.
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Belle |
Re: What makes it a cult? | ||
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Posts: 224 (12/13/02 10:17:00) |
I have some info on what makes a cult, it's VERY interesting. If anybody would be interested I could mail them a copy. Private message me (Mikey's addition).
Belle -------------- Belle, hope you don't mind me editing your post. Made one change. ~Mikey~ |
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Ason |
hope this isnt a dead topic | ||
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Posts: 4 (02/03/03 12:43:20) |
I just wanted to add that I think any denomination that promotes 100% obedience and submission to the church leader or leaders is cult material. Often times they even back up this position with scripture citing O.T. references to Moses and priests who even when they were wrong, were still to be followed and obeyed. However, I think this thinking leaves out the fact that we ALL have the Spirit inside us now ( as believers) and so when our spirit says, " get out.. this is wrong.." we need to listen to it. It's a tough issue becuase sometimes we may think we hear from God but don't.
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Iboh |
Re: Back to the JW | ||
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Posts: 101 (02/13/03 21:05:43) |
I've recently been visited twice by JWs. When they discovered I already had faith, both times the focus of their discussion immediately turned to their belief that the present heaven and earth will not pass away, but will be reconditioned by Christ during the millennial reign, becoming a paradise. We debated this at length, and I wondered why this was the main thrust of their witness to me. Any thoughts?
Iboh |
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Daniel |
Re: Back to the JW | ||
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Posts: 1195 (02/13/03 21:28:07) Administrator |
They are almost certainly trained to do that. They may not know why themselves.
It is probably a diversion tactic, because it's much more difficult for you to convert them by speculating about the future than by talking about the historical facts of Jesus Christ and showing them clear biblical evidence against their beliefs. |
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Iboh |
Re: Back to the JW | ||
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Posts: 101 (02/17/03 07:12:27) |
Daniel,
I think you are right. It's some sort of diversion tactic. I kept asking what does it matter where heaven is, as long as we don't end up in hell. Seems to lend itself to worshipping the creation, and they stressed the need to be good stewards of the earth to deliver a good earth to Christ upon His return, etc. If they used their energies to spread the true gospel message, it would be wonderful, because they do spend alot of time witnessing. |
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Unregistered(d) |
a cry to the world | ||
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Posts: 0 (09/01/03 21:44:27) |
what is sad today many are deceived , they are deceived into " easy believeism" and I for one am gonna take a stand against as all ministers in Jesus Christ should. it is cults like that who deceive many into believing that " if you just ' except the Lord as your personal savior you are saved' ". well I am gonna say that in order to be apart of the kingdom you must follow what Jesus spoke to nicodemous in the 3rd chapter of john, where he asked the Lord " how can one become bornagain", Jesus answered plainly no parables attached that " in order to be born again you must be born of the water and of the spirit" that seems to me a little bit more than just getting on your knees and saying " Jesus I am sorry for my sins I now except you into my life, to be my personal savior"...well for those who speak that I speak this out of love, if you want him to be your personal savior obey what he asks, thats the first step you need to take,, I believe, no, I know in Matthew chpt 28 in the last verses he gives a commission to his disciples(apostles) to preach baptism in the name..THE NAME.. of the father( the fathers name is Jesus) ..and of the son( whose name was also Jesus) and the holyghost( which was the spirit of Jesus,,hence it was Jesus) and if in acts 2:38 peter(his disciple whom he gave the " keys" to the kingdom,,,another words he gave the instructions to peter what to tell people in order to be saved) says to be baptized in Jesus name,,you need to be baptized ,,in His name and in nothing else, nothing other should be spoken.then you must be born again of the spirit by the infilling of the holyghost,,a gift that God s ready to give , only if you want it,,,,,now to truly besaved you must be born again, and getting on your knees and just repenting( which is all easy believers do) is not the whole thing, just 1/3 of it all....and believe me if you do truly believe that it is easy. repent ,be baptized everyone of you for the remissions of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the holy ghost( acts 2:38 ), read , believe it, sleep it , eat it and sell it not.God bless all you Christian soldiers and keep marching his truth on,,,remember the song his truth is marching on, an apostolic man wrote that song,,,God Bless You all in Jesus name
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coffeeplease |
water and spirit | ||
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Posts: 678 (09/03/03 10:08:56) Registered User |
This is how I understand the passage to say...
Nicodemus asks "how can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" Jesus' reply was "......Except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (in my Bible KJV, Life App.) of is italicized which leads me to believe the emphasis is on the word spirit. My understanding of being born of water, is the physical birth from the mothers womb where as we know, the child is enclosed in "water" and when giving birth the water must break for the birthing process to begin. So Jesus is acknowledging both methods of birth. He also go on to say...."that which is born of flesh is flesh and the which is born of spirit is spirit. Once again separating the two methods, but, does not mention water again. Which leads me to understand that water means physical birth instead of baptism. It could also mean the Christian baptism. The issue is not a clear one and probably not meant for us to grasp fully. In verse 16, the beloved verse we all know...For God so loved the World that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not parish, but have everlasting life. Now did He add anything else to that statement about having everlasting life? NO! Nothing. If we add anymore ingredients to that formula, we are adding to the word of God, OUCH, big toe stepping on there!! When you get down to the bare bones and put aside our human expectations of what a Christian should be like, (which we will never be able to do on this side of heaven), we can see that it truly is the lone act of accepting what Christ did for us on the cross and asking Him to be the Lord of our life, that give us eternal life. Are we commanded to live lives full of fruit? Yes! And as a truly saved individual, those fruits will ripen and be evident in our daily lives. I have to disagree with you. This "way" you described is NOT a cult. It is the absolute basic truth. Baptism is a sign of faith for believers, not a requirement for salvation. Should we be baptized, most definately, it demonstrates our commitment and gets you membership into a church. But without it, one can still have salvation. Salvation is easy. The terms "shallow conversation" and "easy believism" are buzz words for those who want to add to the free gift of Christ and sell there own beliefs. (that is a cult) Those terms so frequently used in the AC church are birthed from human misunderstanding and wanting to make much more out of Grace than need be. Furthermore, it is not us who determine the value of ones salvation. Let us not stand in judgement. I am interested though, mmrkgsstt, what the other 1/3 of salvation is that you mentioned. If it is baptism..... it is certainly easy enough to get baptized as a believer.....so it is still quite easy. Your argument is not holding water with me.... 
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markJ81 |
Re: water and spirit | ||
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Posts: 1153 (09/03/03 13:05:21) Frequent User |
Coffeeplease,
You said: My understanding of being born of water, is the physical birth from the mothers womb where as we know, the child is enclosed in "water" and when giving birth the water must break for the birthing process to begin. So Jesus is acknowledging both methods of birth. He also go on to say...."that which is born of flesh is flesh and the which is born of spirit is spirit. Once again separating the two methods, but, does not mention water again. Which leads me to understand that water means physical birth instead of baptism. I agree with you here. The prevelant assumption that "born of water" is refering to water baptism is unfounded, I think. Why would this alleged reference to water be baptism be suddenly plopped into a passage that isn't even concerned with baptism? Even if it were, hypothetically speaking, pointing to water baptism-- which form of water baptism? There are distinctions between John's baptisms and the other baptisms. If Jesus Christ was telling Nicodemas to be "born of baptism", then He certainly would have been speaking of John's baptism. This makes it difficult to justify baptismal regeneration and other such beliefs EVEN if that John 3 is talking about water baptism. If anyone is interested, there is a thread on baptism in which there was some interaction on this passage at http://pub24.ezboard.com/fapostolicchristiandiscussionfrm8.showMessage?topicID=197.topic |
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coffeeplease |
Re: water and spirit | ||
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Posts: 678 (09/03/03 15:04:52) Registered User |
baptismal regeneration _ what does it mean. You kind of lost me in the second half.....
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markJ81 |
Re: water and spirit | ||
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Posts: 1153 (09/03/03 15:55:50) Frequent User |
Coffeplease,
I'm sorry I lost you :) Baptismal regeneration is the idea that water baptism is essential to salvation and that it actually plays a role in the cleansing of sins. |
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Unregistered(d) |
water baptism | ||
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Posts: 0 (09/10/03 11:25:32) |
could somebody please help me out:
I thought our church(acc), beleived that water baptism IS required in order to enter the kingdom of God. Now, I know that most people in our churches beleive that being born again of the spirit is an essential, and the most important part of becoming a new creature in Christ. But the water baptism symbolizes "putting away the old man and arising as a new creature". It seems that even our basic doctorines are not beleived anymore! I'm not implying that you, coffeeplease, or you, mark are completely wrong, I'm just amazed at what you are saying. If anyone has the time, please give me some qoutes on the actual "water" baptism and then tell me why you do not beleive it is necessary to enter the kingdom of God. |
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markJ81 |
Re: water baptism | ||
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Posts: 1153 (09/10/03 11:36:49) Frequent User |
justpassinthrough,
Just to clarify what I believe: I believe baptism is important, but not necessary for salvation. One is saved on the basis of Christ alone and our salvation does not depend on things "made with hands". That being said, Jesus commands believers to be baptized, therefore a believer that refuses to be baptized is violating the command of Jesus Christ and that would be a sin. There are many Biblical reasons for this, but I am not going to get into them (since this is a bit off topic). You can probably find them in one of the other threads (especially my debate with Josh). Now.. there have been many in our denomination who think differently than me on this. However, the ACCN statement of faith (item #13) addresses this issue and says nothing about baptism being a requirement for going to heaven. You refer to our "basic doctrines", which are....?? I haven't seen an ACC statement of faith that teaches baptism as being a requirement for salvation. And on top of that, there is only one or two formal "ACC paper" on baptism that I know of--and they are both authored by Froehlich. An interesting way to look at it: - Baptism is not a requirement for salvation, but salvation is a requirement for baptism. Does that help at all? |
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coffeeplease |
Re: water baptism | ||
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Posts: 678 (09/10/03 12:28:10) Registered User |
This is from the ACCA statement of faith......
It is believed that salvation is obtained by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. True faith embodies the component of obedience which instructs a soul to do as the Lord Jesus emphatically taught, "Repent; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand".2 The Biblical pattern of repentance is observed which includes godly sorrow3 for a past sinful life, confession of sins,4 restitution for past wrongs5 and becoming dead to sin.6 The wonderful and matchless grace of God is given to those who are humble in heart,7 along with peace and forgiveness from God. It goes on to say...... Following conversion, a growth in Christian graces, and manifesting the fruit of the Spirit, the new convert then gives a testimony of his or her faith and conversion experience to the congregation. This is followed by water baptism by immersion.8 Baptism symbolizes the burial of the old sinful nature into the death of Christ, and the subsequent rising of a soul out of the baptismal waters as a new creature in Christ Jesus.9 This is followed by the laying on of hands whereby a church Elder prays over the new member as the official confirmation of the presence of the Holy Spirit in the believers heart.10 So it is not our belief that it is required for salvation, but is describing the tradition of the AC Church. If anyone is believing that, they are being misinformed. |
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Unregistered(d) |
baptism | ||
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Posts: 0 (10/13/03 10:29:26) |
thanks markj81--
i know this reply is kinda late, but just wanted to let you know that your post helped alot. |
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giant slayer |
baptism or baptismal regeneration | ||
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Posts: 821 (11/23/05 14:53:47) Frequent User |
some things need to be clarified in my thinking. Maybe someone can help!
Whosoever BELIEVETH in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Isn't it true that to believe in Him is more than just head knowledge, but obedience? if so, would that not make baptism necessary for salvation because obedience is necessary for salvation. Didn't Paul say that for him that knows to do good and does it not, to him it is sin? While I agree that if a person repents, and is born again by the Spirit and should die before he has the chance to be baptized, he will be saved because he hasn't had the chance to be baptized, but I can't believe that a person who is out and out disobedient to the commands of our Lord can be saved if he dies in that condition. The arguement that baptism is works just don't hold WATER. Works are an attempt to try to earn salvation while obedience from a heart filled with the Spirit is as natural for a true christian as breathing. I don't understand why true believers would even have to debate these issues. The same Lord Jesus who said you must be born again, said go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creatures, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Giant slayer |
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