Is the ACC whether A or N like a cult?
HonorHim
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HonorHim |
Is the ACCA/ACCN like a cult? |
Lead | |
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Greetings to everyone!
Is the ACC whether A or N like a cult? HonorHim |
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Mikey |
Re: Is the ACCA/ACCN like a cult? | ||
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Hi Honor Him. I remember this questions being asked a while back, but I believe the long thread has been lost when ezBoard got hacked into. I couldn't find it anyway, maybe one of the moderators will remember where it is and find it (if it is still here). What follows are some links to threads that discuss the issue in general, but do not answer your question per se.
Secrecy Secrecy Secrecy! Cult members What makes it a cult? |
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Mikey |
Re: Is the ACCA/ACCN like a cult? | ||
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Ten Characteristics of Churches that Abuse (Summation: Churches the Abuse Dr. Ronald Enroth)
* Abusive churches use fear, guilt and threats: 1. Control-oriented leadership 2. Manipulation of members * Abusive churches see themselves as special: 3. Spiritual elitism (e.g., dogmatism) 4. Perceived persecution * Abusive churches foster rigidity: 5. Lifestyle rigidity (e.g., legalism, performance oriented) 6. Emphasis on experience (e.g., experience of leaders is key source of truth) * Abusive churches discourage questions: 7. Suppression of dissent (e.g., dogmatism--only our view is right; "trust and obey") 8. Harsh discipline (e.g., legalism, shunning, control of dating & family relationships, etc.) * Abusive churches make leaving painful: 9. Denunciation of other churches (e.g. salvation is only through us, our brand of faith) 10. A painful exit process (shunning, humiliation, starting over in relationships and/or financially) Nine Characteristics of a Cult (Ronald Enroth) Authoritarian: central, authoritarian leadership in one person or small group of individuals. Oppositional: values, beliefs or practices at variance with the dominant culture or tradition. Exclusivistic: only the group has the truth, usually based on new insights or revelation. Legalistic: a tightly structured framework which governs spirituality and the smallest details of daily life. Subjective: undue emphasis on experience and emotions often resulting in anti-intellectualism. Persecution-Conscious: the belief that their group is singled out for persecution. Sanction-Oriented: stern sanctions issued for anything less than total obedience. Esoteric: an emphasis on secret, hidden or inner truth. Anti-Sacerdotal: lack of paid clergy and an emphasis on laity in leadership. |
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HonorHim |
Re: Is the ACCA/ACCN like a cult? | ||
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Mikey,
Thanks for the info. Honor Him |
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Hoerr123 |
Re: Is the ACCA/ACCN like a cult? | ||
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Why in the world would the lack of paid laity be a characteristic of a cult? If I ran a cult I would have them paying me through the nose.
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Unregistered(d) |
Just Curious | ||
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Honor Him,
I'm just curious, do you feel that the ACCA/N is a cult or like one? |
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HonorHim |
Re: Just Curious | ||
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Guest,
Yes, I do! I was wondering what others think. The situation we are in, is very controlling and if you step out a little bit of line then wrath comes. Honor Him ps removing ourselves very soon |
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Unregistered(d) |
HonorHim | ||
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HonorHim,
I'm sorry to hear how you feel about the ACCA but I disagree with you. I have been very blest being a part of this assembly as I know many have been. When I look at what is preached and taught within our church, and I compare it to what the infallible Word says, I must concur that what is preached is truth. Now perhaps I don't understand or agree with some of the practices and administrations of our church, but overall I feel that church leadership is trying to do their best to help us as fellow believers and the sheep of God's flock get to heaven. As you meet with the elder of your church, my prayer will simply be that God's will be done. It will not be in support of you or the elder - but God's will. |
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OnlyHim |
Re: guest | ||
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Guest,
You wrote: leadership is trying to do their best to help us as fellow believers and the sheep of God's flock get to heaven. It may be nit-picking, but nobody can help you get to heaven. Jesus was the sacrifice the redeems us to Heaven. Speaking from the ACCN side, I do not believe the church as a whole can be defined as "cult". Although, some leaders of specific churches within the ACCN have defined themselves to be so. I do appreciate your patience and tolerance for your leaders. This does not mean you can passively accept error. Discerning Christians within the flock should be dilegent in keeping and submitting to the Word of God. A good leader sheperds the flock properly by the accurate use of that scripture. ...teaching it accurately. Bad leaders add to scripture, thinking they have it better or choose to misuse it to their own agenda. To their flock, I suggest loving those leaders so much that you bring them the points of their error so it can be corrected. If you receive hostile response...look for the nearest exit. Christian cults (if I may even call them this) are often the end-result to years of Biblical herecy - starting with the naive acceptance of errors. OnlyHim |
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Unregistered(d) |
OnlyHim | ||
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Hi OnlyHim,
Jesus is the only way into heaven. The only way of salvation. BUT, He gives us many helps as we journey towards Heaven. Consider the 22nd and 23rd verses of the Book of Jude: "And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh." Consider this scenerio: I am about to fall into horrible sin and spiritual "shipwreck". The godly example and/or the loving counsel of another child of God helps me to avoid this terrible act. Did that child of God save me or grant me salvation? No! But they were a help to me on my earthly journey. So yes, you're right- you are nitpicking. |
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Unregistered(d) |
Cult Accusations | ||
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. . . I'm still waiting for one of the administrators to sweep in with a dramatic warning to all the people accusing the ACC of being a cult that they could could(!) potentially be blaspheming . . .
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Daniel |
Re: Cult Accusations | ||
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That's funny, we were waiting for you.
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Unregistered(d) |
Cult Accusations | ||
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I'm flattered, Daniel.
But what happened to ACDiscussion's committment to unbaised moderating? |
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Unregistered(d) |
Let's Try Some Spirits, Here | ||
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I've read through Dr. Enroth's very official, academic-sounding list and am only left to wonder if he has ever actually read the Bible. If churches like the ACC make him nervous, I'd like to hear his reaction to the church of the apostles. Let's compare the biblical Church against his list:
"Abusive Churches" 1)"use fear, guilt and threats" -- Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. I Tim. 5:20 2)"[Use] Control-oriented leadership" -- Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account" Heb. 13:17 3)"see themselves as special" -- Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you II Cor. 6:17 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 4)"[engage in] Spiritual elitism (e.g., dogmatism)" -- it was needful for me to write unto you . . . that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. Jude 3 5)"[Maintain] Perceived persecution" (This one is my personal favorite) -- Yea and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. II Tim. 3:12 6)"[Foster] Lifestyle rigidity" -- Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? I Cor. 11:14 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel I Pet. 3:3 7)"[Emphasize] experience of leaders is key source of truth" -- But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Heb. 5:14 8) "[Suppress] dissent (e.g., dogmatism--only our view is right" -- For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers . . . whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not Tit. 1:10-11 if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Matt. 18:17 9)"Harsh discipline (e.g., legalism, shunning" --concerning him that hath so done this deed, . . . deliver such an one unto Satan . . . with such an one no not to eat. I Cor. 5 10)"Denunciation of other churches" -- If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. Gal. 1:9 11)"A painful exit process (shunning, humiliation" -- For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. II Pet. 2:21-22 What Dr. Enroth doesn't seem to realize is that while he may feel like he is indicting certain denominations, most of his list -- in the eyes of secular society -- also fits all of evangelical Christianity ("control of dating & family relationships", "Spiritual elitism (e.g., dogmatism)"). **Davey modified so that HTML would appear correctly. And fixed a typo. That's about it. Hope it helps.** |
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Unregistered(d) |
Cult Accusations | ||
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While it may feel good to embarass one's doctrinal enemies by linking them to Jim Jones and David Koresh, people should re-think just Who it is that is being served by this particular thread.
Because it doesn't matter if the false doctrine is coming from men who stock-pile weapons or men who publish and sell books in Christian bookstores. Because the acceptance of either group's teachings can result in spiritual devastation. But Christians wanting to feel sophisticated by analyzing whether a heretical group is or is not a cult are distracting from the threat of the men publishing books and the dangers of false doctrine -- whatever the false doctrine. Unfortunately, the scriptures clearly place Dr. Enroth in this second category. |
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Unregistered(d) |
Best One-Liners This Side of the Liberal-Conservative Divide | ||
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Hoerr123, whether you want to be or not, you are my new best friend.
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Davey |
Re: Is the ACCA/ACCN like a cult? | ||
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If Enroth's cult-ism list was as universally applicable to churches as it is to any sociological group of leaders and followers, it would apply to my family, my employer, and even slavery:
Control-oriented leadership [parents or boss] Manipulation of members [kids or employees] see themselves as special [what business or family doesn't?] Perceived persecution [chores, hard labor] Lifestyle rigidity [moral standards, code of ethics] Emphasis on experience [parents and boss know best] Suppression of dissent [spankings, disciplinary actions] make leaving painful [running away or quitting never a pleasant option] Denunciation of other A painful exit process [exiting a family or a job will hurt financially and will impact relationships] Is my family a cult? Or my employer? Or is slavery a cult? They all have most of these traits, but none are cults. These groups all simply exhibit standard leadership/sociological heirarchy traits of a member/follower group with one overall purpose. And when the list of cult-isms are applied to a church, it is all too easy in helping believers question authority and it leaves the burden of proof of support for cult-isms on the hearer instead of the person who invokes the correlations. Yes, I'm guilty of not completely learning what Dr. Enroth used to support his cult-isms. However, because they can be boiled down to simplistic, watered-down bullet-points, they should not be easilly used to gauge a church or to allow for cart-blanche questioning of a Church's intentions for it's members. I agree that brandishing a church with 'cult' labels should not be taken lightly. However, only one user so far has formally suggested the ACC of being one. Still, I don't see this thread going anywhere productive. I'm certain each cult-ism can be discussed on it's own scriptural merit, but this entire thread just seems like a setup for too much of a catch-all, gripe session. (my only surprise is that Interested Sister hasn't yet accused the moderators of being a cult. I would think your perception is that most of those cult-isms apply to us, as well.) |
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N789DB |
Re: Is the ACCA/ACCN like a cult? | ||
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Good Biblical leadership will encourage honest questioning and testing of theology to see if it is consistant with the Bible.
A good example of this are that the Bereans were held up as an example of Christians who tested what they were told against the scriptures. This was commended as a GOOD thing. Cultic leadership will be upset if questioned no matter the proper attitude of the questioner. They will also be upset if their answer is not immediately excepted as fact. They are looking for blind obediance and are dictatorian. |
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markJ81 |
Re: Cult Accusations | ||
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. . . I'm still waiting for one of the administrators to sweep in with a dramatic warning to all the people accusing the ACC of being a cult that they could could(!) potentially be blaspheming . . .
Interested Sister, I'm not sure I would equate wrongly classifying a group as a cult to blasphemy. Of course, there are different ways to define "cult", and not everyone agrees what is a cult and what is not a cult. Is the ACC a cult in the sense of "A system or community of religious worship and ritual"? Definately. Is the ACC a cult in the sense of "An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric...interest". Probably. Is the ACC a cult in the sense of "A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader". No, with a couple side notes: 1. Some of the our distinctives (in terms of thology and practice) are quite much in common with some groups that would be classified as cults (Jehovah's Witness, etc.) by evangelical Christains. 2. Some leaders (for the record: I'm not claiming that all or many are like this) have had a leadership style which would, from the perspective of an uninitiated observer, be in many respects indistinguishable from that of a cult leader (by the last definition I mentioned). Of course, as you have insightfully eluded to, much of what the Bible teaches may be misidentified by some as cultic. If people call that "cultic", so be it. However, unfortunately, in our case, some of our more esoteric social practices (that are non-Biblical) and policies and fearful and controlling (in the un-Christain sense) leadership attitudes have often lead people to label us as a cult, not necessarily our obedience to the Bible. For example, I do not look down on someone who would label a church that does the following as "cultic": A. A church that will only show (not make a copy of) the overview summary report of Elder meetings for their individual members. *or* B. A church that won't let their members publically share their ministers sermons on the internet, for fear of who might get their hands on them. Now, here's a thing we should all consider: If we feel we are misidentified as a cult, then we should look for ways (without comprimising Biblical truth of course) that we can exemplify openess, less fear, less blatently reactionary, communicative, less secretive, authoritarian only in the sense of God-ordained authority, etc. . I don't believe its all that hard. If we lessen our fear of criticism, clearly communicate our ideas, be open, do things in public when possible, stop putting people on discipline for things that are not sinful, teach our members to be discerning about outside information rather than frowning up everything without reference to its content, etc., we would go a long way to demonstrating that we are truly not a cult, but rather an group (perhaps escoteric) that is seeking to obey God. |
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markJ81 |
Re: Cult Accusations | ||
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I said: "For example, I do not look down on someone who would label a church that does the following as 'cultic'"
Lest I be misunderstood, please see that I said "I do not look down on someone who would.." My post does not imply that I think these things make the ACC a cult, but merely that I can somewhat understand why people would look at things like that and label it a cult. |
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fritzmb |
Re: Cult Accusations | ||
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Mark,
I did recognize in your original post the distinction between you yourself calling something cultic (which I recognize you did not) and "not looking down on someone who would...", although that line of distinction could be viewed as rather fine. Thank you for making the clarification more plain in your next post. However, I think it is more an issue of being willing to understand/defend/explain a practice, rather than just not looking down on someone who calls that practice cultic. I believe the Bible says we should not "look down" on anyone. As has already been stated in this thread, various people call various things cultic which are not. Are we willing to stand up and understand/defend/explain the purpose/reason for a practice, so others are able to understand and even appreciate it and will not incorrrectly view it as cultic? |
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